TypoBerlin Day Three.
Jan Middendorp goes into Space and returns to (Sol) Sender
That was then, this is now. Today, very few established type designers and graphic designers show up, unless they’re invited to speak. (Many of the German designers who were discussing the state of the craft on Friday weren’t even attending the conference.) The audience is young, with probably more than half of them still in college. To them, this may be as significant an event as those first conferences were to the participants then. It’s their first chance to catch a glimpse of their heroes – Alejandro Paul or Erik van Blokland to some, Joshua Davis or Chip Kidd to others. But there’s a big difference. For some years now, TypoBerlin has been a show, not a get-together. In spite of the workshops and small-stage interviews, most of the communication going on is one-way.
So what was on offer on day three? Again, the four-track programme made it impossible to take in the complete picture (fortunately, recordings of the programme’s high points are compiled on a reasonably priced DVD). The opening lecture by newspaper designer Roger Black, co-founder of Boston’s Font Bureau, was a reminder that type is serious business, and technically complex. Black and his colleague David Berlow are proposing new specifications to give users legal access to non-system Web fonts.
After that, it was all play again, with Brooklyn designer Ebon Heath presenting his three-dimensional typographic experiments which, while starting out as computer-generated models, result in hand-cut paper sculptures (above). What was most impressive about Heath’s presentation was his personal story: here’s a black designer who is successful at designing streetwise identities for fashion and music products but gives up that job because it doesn’t feel right, to cut paper all day long. To career-minded budding professionals it was a lesson of some sort, I guess. A similar enthusiasm for handcrafted type was displayed by a freshly graduated Australian designer who calls herself Mrs Eaves (real name: Gemma O’Brien). Her main claim to fame is to have covered her lean body in lettering with a black marker, capturing the process in a stop-motion video and having some success at YouTube. She showed wacky, intricate hand-drawn title pages as well as a short Helvetica-like documentary on the state of Australian typography – a well structured little piece. She’s obviously got talent, and the audience liked her; whether or not she’s important enough to fly in from Sydney is probably a futile question.
There were interventions by well-known type designers as well. Nick Shinn, an Englishman in Toronto, had chosen to leave type alone and stick to the conference’s theme (Space) by giving an erudite short history of perspective. He is a great researcher and had dug up material I’d never seen before; but I couldn’t help regretting he wasn’t there to talk about the history of lettering, at which he’s a crack.
The last speaker was a masterstroke. It is an excellent idea to remind young audiences that graphic design is supposed to have a real function in the real world; that its purpose is to communicate, convince and unite. When this message is brought across by a designer who has been part of the most influential political campaign in recent history, that’s even better. Sol Sender and his team designed the ‘Rising Sun’ logo that was a central icon of Barack Obama’s campaign right from the start. The way in which Sender methodically explained the thinking and selecting process, and the way the logo was then professionally implemented as well as appropriated by the grass roots, was one of the best lessons in graphic functionalism I’ve ever witnessed. And man, those Americans know how to give a presentation.
All in all, I found this edition of TypoBerlin satisfactory, and instructive at times. But to me – and, I think, to many colleagues in Berlin and elsewhere – the event has outgrown its role as a meeting place for people involved in typographic communication. People find it expensive (yes, Jürgen, it’s reasonable to seminar standards, but a lot of money for struggling Berlin designers) or simply too big or not interesting enough. There have been vague proposals to set up a more intimate counter-event (Cheapo Berlin?) but there might be better options. This years’ meeting of the German graphic design world showed that TypoBerlin would like to play a role here; and yet it doesn’t. As such, it’s a victim of its own success. If the event wants to avoid getting stuck in its own formula, some serious rethinking will have to be done.
Jan Middendorp on TypoBerlin Day Two and TypoBerlin Day One
TypoBerlin video blog.
TypoBerlin 2009 on Flickr.
May 28th, 2009 at 5:03 pm | by HD Schellnack
>People find it expensive
Well, we were talking about the fact that Design is too cheap. It’s a domino effect, a chain reaction of money not being there. Clients economize on the designers, who are (not all, but obviously too many) underpaid, who then cannot afford stuff like legal software, paid trainees or *gasp* a TYPO-ticket. Considering the talent amassed at this event, the technical expertise, the team and all that I wonder if you can actually do it more cheaply wtithout massively cutting corners or going into yet more sponsored areas than we are bemoaning today, which would make the TYPO more biased and vulnerable. If you buy early enough, the ticket is the price of a font package and that - all in all, and while I didn’t pay for myself, i paid for two employees - is fair enough. Would I like to pay less? Betcha - but I don’t see how they would do it. And I don’t think an audience that wants to pay LESS for a certain level of event (and stil would be nagging if the food isn’t top notch or the speakers fail to be Jerry Lewis and Wikipedia rolled into one) is the right kinda audience… there are enough free conferences out there, aren’t there?
Not interesting enough is another thing, and yet - people on the one hand say that tthe very same people are speakers year after year and on the other, if asked, what they want to see, they come up with… Sagmeister, Kidd, Lombardo and so on, the very same people we see again and again (which also shows that there are very very very few «headliners» able to fill and entertain a large hall in our business, weirdly enough).
Could it be better? It always could, but maybe it is just reflecting out market, our industry that it all feels a bit «been there done that» that it all comes back to the Kidds and Sagmeisters (and their German counterparts) and that one is almost happy to hear a lecture in which design isn’t some kind of personal expression or fun but a job done well (Sender, but also the great Sascha Lobe portfolio-show, which offered little new stuff but explained the ideas behind the work very well). Maybe it’s not time for some serious rethinking on the part of Benno, Jürgen et al, but for the industry… because if the TYPO is starting to bore you, maybe that is because it reflects the industry pretty well :-D-
Great, great article, as per usual with your writing. Kudos!
May 28th, 2009 at 8:01 pm | by jessica jenkins
Whichever way you argue it, TYPO is shockingly expensive. I wonder how the young designers mentioned by Jan manage to pay for it, the equivalent of roughly two months’ rent for a Berlin student. Even many designers in work here are barely earning above survival level. In the past I have (at similar celebrity style conferences) felt that there has been too much show and not enough dialogue with young people who must have really struggled to pay their own costs.
May 28th, 2009 at 10:21 pm | by Benjamin Hickethier
Very nice, very nice, Jan! Good points, great summary, wise focussing and you even managed to name-drop/introduce ‹cheapo berlin›. Who’s in charge of the mind-map doodles?!
May 29th, 2009 at 9:32 am | by HD Schellnack
Students, IIRC, pay about 190 Euro if they order the tickets early. Is living in Berlin so cheap that your rent is about 100 Euro?
Also, it is critical to argue «expensive» from the buyers perspective. That way, EVERYTHING is expensive. Heck, they really should downgrade those Porsches so that every student can afford them. Also, please make that nice 4 mil € Jugendstil villa so cheap I can move my bureau into it. Doesn’t work that way. I’m pretty sure the prices are made according to the costs of the event. You want a Cheapo, it will probably feel like one as well. With people complaining at the same time about prices, about the quality of food and about the fact that there should be more high-profile international speakers, I wonder how frustrating that must feel for the people organizing the event. It’s a bit ungrateful, especially as I’m pretty sure that even an outsold Typo doesn’t make Fontshop a dime.
Also, somebody should just check out what workshops and events cost in other industries. Really. If a student doesn’t have 200 Euro for one of the highest-class conferences in the business, he still can follow the blog and the videos - but maybe he should invest that kind of money in his future and the work he loves and will do for the rest of his life, I think.
May 29th, 2009 at 10:44 am | by jessica jenkins
true, its always annoying when people don’t have money and then whinge about the cost of things. but low wages especially in the creative professions are a reality here (http://tinyurl.com/nckah2), and although clearly some students do stretch to the cost (my calculation was based on a 645 entry fee, equivalent to about 2 months rent for a room in berlin), the argument made by jan in his post about the conference aim and format i think is very valid and worthy of consideration. surely this is not supposed to be aimed at villa and porsche owners? we seem to forget about the conferring and offer instead a kind of gala. i am not sure if this is such an investment in the future or just a treat, like a kind of live glossy magazine with purely aspirational value which ends in a sort of deflation. myself i dont go to conferences for the canapes.
May 29th, 2009 at 11:49 am | by HD Schellnack
Er, you misunderstood. I wasn’t saying that Typo is for Porsche-drivers, but rather that a product often costs as much as it does because of the production. Typo isn’t cheap because it is 3 days of top speakers, top location, free food and expensive technology. I’m pretty sure there is no or very little profit made ( I may be wrong and Jan might know better than me, being more of an Insider), but I can imagine that speakers’ fees, flights, Hotel, beamers, computers, crew and all that stuff doesn’t come cheap. And if you would make a 99 €-Typo, there would be less international high-profile speakers, maybe a cheaper location, maybe no catering… and people would complain like crazy or stay away.
I think 199 for students is pretty fair and the prize for «adults» is okay as well compared to other stuff. I mean, a one-day-seminar on banking starts at 2000 €, a workshop on emotional bookselling in Frankfurt costs 700 Euro/day. Three days of international top-notch-event on designand typography comes with the same price tag, so where is the problem?
645 is the final price, for latecomers, and for professionals. NOT for students. And NOT for people ordering in the first, what is it, three or four months… 650 is okay for a design studio, considering what a single employee costs, or rent and stuff… and you get a taxes kickback, so that 650 bucks feels more like an investment. Education/information is an investment, like a new printer or like marketing for your studio. The price is 100% okay for a studio.
If it isn’t, THEN we must talk about the fact that design itself has become too cheap, that a designer cannot afford legal type, legal software and a legal Typo-ticket anymore. The problem, here, is not with the price of the Typo, but with the kind of money we make with our work, right?
And frankly, a student that does not at least ONCE spend those 199 € to see Chip Kidd, Sagmeister, Carson, Lasse or someone of that stature live on stage, has a problem, and I don’t mean a monetary problem. The Typo is once a year, that is as little as 17 € per month. COME ONNNNN. It’s worth the fun, it is. These folks also pay for their handies, for books, for cigarettes and stuff… why not 17 € for three days of an overload of typographic information?
Also: Consider this. an complained that 1996 the Typo was an event of equals. Will LOWERING the price change that? There are many many many such events directly aimed at students, but Typo is first and foremost also for the professionals.
So, let’s talk about better speakers, more free coffee - and also, because I agree here, more exchange (though - how do you stimulate that systematically? It’s there or it is not, isn’t it?) - but not about the price, because that is pretty much okay. The product is well worth is. Anything else WOULD indeed be a «Cheapo».
More exchange is a good idea, and the Typo Panel, especially the third part, went into that direction, imo. Still, people left the discussion to catch the next «gala» speaker, so maybe that is what they come for? Some want to confer and exchange ideas, other want to consume portfolio shows?
Man, I sound as if Jürgen pays me for this :-D.
A problem for the Typo, I feel, is the Internet. You already KNOW so much stuff - I mean, why look at the portfolio presentation of a designer when you’ve already seen all this stuff on his website or elsewhere? Why listen to a lecture, when you’ve already seen it on TED? This, I think, is a crucial point for the Typo (and any such conference) in the future: How to make it feel more «real», more palpable, as opposed to the virtual experience of design in the web? How do you make it feel more like a live event concert instead of a CD?
May 29th, 2009 at 12:09 pm | by jessica jenkins
i did not misunderstand: you said quality has a price. i am saying that, worth it or not, it is a price largely out of reach in berlin, where many designers earn barely the minimum wage — a separate issue which needs to be addressed, but that is how it is, and there is no C’mon! about it. sure, for a flourishing commercial design studio, its not a problem and of course its great fun, but i would go for content over gloss every time. were i conceiving a conference i would also want to make it accessible designers whose work is on more the side of interesting than purely lucrative.
perhaps some participants would like to contribute to this debate.
May 29th, 2009 at 12:28 pm | by HD Schellnack
>in berlin, where many designers earn barely the minimum wage That is NOT a seperate problem, but a central, essential problem of our industry. Too many designers, clients that abuse the silent reserve of designdrones - and so there’s very little money to be made for the army of freelancers, which of course all believe it is cool to live in a city SWARMING with designers and basically VOID of well-paying clients.
Discussing the price of Typo and wanting to make it a low-budget-show (with low-budget-quality) is not really a solution, eh? They way is to make this business functional as a business again - and that will hurt a lot of folks a lot more than entry fees at a convention. It will either happen structured and planned, or it will happen (as it does now) as simple market dynamics of an industry basically emaciating itself.
Also, it is not true that interesting and lucrative are (always) at odds, on the contrary. Design is not really art, it’s a service. It can be art, heck it SHOULD, but that is one branch of what we do (out of four or five different aspects of what design probably is/will be), and a lucrative business of designing communication is also part of it. And again, there are MANY other conferences :-D.
>perhaps some participants would like to contribute to this >debate.
Sorry for monopolizing this, I’ll shut up for a bit…
May 29th, 2009 at 12:34 pm | by jessica jenkins
and lower budget does not equal lower quality. i am talking about a different quality, less along showbiz lines, and more inclusive both in format and price. i agree with your point about the silent reserves of low paid designers, and as on the rest i think we might have to agree to differ, i will leave it at that.
May 29th, 2009 at 2:02 pm | by Benjamin Hickethier
An interesting observation I am making every year, while participating on the crew side of each Typo, is that very few design students from Berlin do take advantage of the opportunities that this gathering of interesting and giving people (willing to share knowledge) offers, although intended by the organization; by for instance opening panels for ‹the public›, at the Stage/Café Global, or this year’s discussion, or anything that happens in the Foyer.
Even the simple fact that you can get in touch, talk to or contact & show stuff to the speakers and any other attendee (I guess that’s what students usually are into), is hardly recognized. You do not need to have a ticket to enter the Haus der Kulturen der Welt. Last but not least, the TypoNight as the main social event is a good possibility to pick up some TypoBerlin spirit and get in touch, with really fair entrance fees, of really moderate pricing (€ 10), compared to what some Berlin students pay for going out. But the times when there were students and other design affiliated non-conference-attendees were standing in line around the block waiting to enter the party, seem some years ago. And that is definitely not because of possibly lower quality of the TypoNights! This year’s party and venue, for instance, were just terrific.
And in the end, the TypoCrew behind the scenes and everywhere itself constitues a bunch of students and other not-Porsche-drivers.
No doubt HD has a point in that as a Typo guest/attendee you receive way more than you pay for – and I’m saying this as objectively as I could; of course I know also how hard people are working to get this incredibly intensive and comprehensive event operating so smoothly.
May 29th, 2009 at 2:08 pm | by Benjamin Hickethier
An interesting observation I am making every year, while participating on the crew side of each Typo, is that very few design students from Berlin do take advantage of the opportunities that this gathering of interesting and giving people (willing to share knowledge) offers, although intended by the organization; by for instance opening panels for ‹the public›, at the Stage/Café Global, or this year’s discussion, or anything that happens in the Foyer.
Even the simple fact that you can get in touch, talk to or contact & show stuff to the speakers and any other attendee (I guess that’s what students usually are into), is hardly recognized. You do not need to have a ticket to enter the Haus der Kulturen der Welt. Last but not least, the TypoNight as the main social event is a good possibility to pick up some TypoBerlin spirit and get in touch, with really fair entrance fees, of really moderate pricing (€ 10), compared to what some Berlin students pay for going out. But the times when there were students and other design affiliated non-conference-attendees were standing in line around the block waiting to enter the party, seem some years ago. And that is definitely not because of possibly lower quality of the TypoNights! This year’s party and venue, for instance, were just terrific.
And in the end, the TypoCrew behind the scenes and everywhere itself constitues a bunch of students and other not-Porsche-drivers.
No doubt HD has a point in that as a Typo guest/attendee you receive way more than you pay for – and I’m saying this as objectively as I could; of course I know also how hard people are working to get this incredibly intensive and comprehensive event operating so smoothly.
May 29th, 2009 at 2:35 pm | by Eye blog » TypoBerlin Day One. Jan Middendorp blogs for Eye – direct from the ‘pregnant oyster’
[...] Middendorp on TypoBerlin Day Two and TypoBerlin Day Three TypoBerlin video blog. TypoBerlin 2009 on Flickr. No TweetBacks yet. (Be the first to Tweet this [...]
May 29th, 2009 at 2:35 pm | by Eye blog » TypoBerlin Day Two. Another Jan Middendorp Eye report – Ale, Angel, Adam, John and Chip
[...] Middendorp on TypoBerlin Day One and TypoBerlin Day Three TypoBerlin video blog. TypoBerlin 2009 on Flickr. No TweetBacks yet. (Be the first to Tweet this [...]
May 29th, 2009 at 2:57 pm | by jessica jenkins
the focus on students’ habits and desires is a bit misleading. the price issue is relevant to designers of any age not working in more lucrative areas of the trade, and there is a high concentration of those in berlin.
May 29th, 2009 at 3:18 pm | by Benjamin Hickethier
Well, the main point is, that the Typo is actually generating more value, content, offer and reaching out for a larger public than what is usually taken in calculation when debating the entrance fee. Furthermore, there is a lot Typo-content offered via freely accessible media.
May 29th, 2009 at 4:44 pm | by Indra
HD, I would love to see you participating in the discussion about our profession on some sort of federtation/union/society basis.
The podium at TypoBerlin was a good start. We should not leave it as it is until next year.
Why dont’t we all get involved in some sort of organisation (and bring them together!) and become so influencial that we force Fontshop to provide better coffee and more room for communication.
May 29th, 2009 at 4:54 pm | by HD Schellnack
Indra, I’m in BDG, AGD, iF as fasr as Germany is concerned ( I think US-ADC and TDC won’t help us much :-D). But you saw how little chance of AGD and BDG joining forces there is.
I think it is very telling that Fontshop/Typo/Fontblog is more, much more influencial (think Cottbus) than any kind of «regular» organisation, which - imo - makes me doubt the right to exist for those official alliances in some ways. The raison d’etre for any kind of organization can’t be to simply… be, exist, have members, spread newsletters, when Jürgen’s blog shows that we actually CAN have a voice and when Typo showed that yes, designers like Erler and Spiekermann are unhappy with the way the market works and would love to improve things… and most frightening: that the real-world politicians (Tanja Mühlhans, representing the Berlin Senate) would LOVE to see us get our shit together.
So and yeah - the coffee was indeed a problem, wasn’t it :-D?
Room for communication, however, is given plenty. Coffee Breaks (sans coffee, ooookay), Dinner… maybe in the future we should plan to stay longer in Berlin for more informal gatherings. I never have enough time to even chat with all the people I’d love to talk to.
May 29th, 2009 at 8:04 pm | by Simone
Price is value to me and if I compare TYPO to ATypI, for example, that are both on the same level.. no doubt I’d come to Berlin. I find it a fair level. We all have to make choices, don’t we? And for things that are important to me, I will always finds ways.
I like the idea to make time to talk to all the people. But if you start that off ‘officially’ again, you fall into the exact same trap, too many people again. Maybe the intimate, smaller circles is what needs to be organized…
May 30th, 2009 at 10:51 am | by Indra
We can unofficially institutionalize the sunday picknick on the meadow next to the Auster for example.
And yes, Simone, it is about choice. For me, there meanwhile are to much type-gatherings around. We should join forces not only on union-level. Let’s get the AtypI oldies over here ))
May 30th, 2009 at 1:16 pm | by Simone
Indra - both great ideas! I’m ready…! Let’s do it!
May 31st, 2009 at 8:10 am | by Jürgen Siebert
The simplest way to get free entrance to TYPO Berlin is: register as a journalist and write blog posts for Eye.
May 31st, 2009 at 9:21 am | by JLW
nothing simple about that, Jürgen
John / Eye
June 1st, 2009 at 3:35 pm | by Jan Middendorp
Thanks, John.
Jürgen, I won’t comment. It’s too malicious for words.
–Jan
June 1st, 2009 at 4:41 pm | by Kenneth FitzGerald
>And frankly, a student that does not at least ONCE spend those 199 € to see Chip Kidd, Sagmeister, Carson, Lasse or someone of that stature live on stage, has a problem, and I don’t mean a monetary problem.<
I would describe the “problem” as a refreshing sense of priorities and an allergic reaction to self-aggrandizement. Hearing Chip Kidd sing like the Wicked Witch of the West helps a design student HOW?
June 1st, 2009 at 4:58 pm | by Jan Middendorp
Some good points about value for money in this thread. However, there should be no misunderstandings about who is saying what.
There’s a difference between perceived expensiveness or affordability and what is really a good or a bad deal. One should be able to discuss whether the audience you’d like to reach is willing or able to pay the price, without getting emotional about the question if something is worth that price. Reporting that many people in Berlin find it hard, for whatever reason, to come up with the entry fee to an event like Typo Berlin is not the same as making a value judgement about what the event is worth.
Jessica is right: many independent professionals here are underpaid (or do unpaid work a lot of the time), and to them any entry fee between 300 and 600 euros can be very difficult to afford. Comparing that price to notoriously expensive seminars is one way of looking at it; as a counterexample I’d like to cite Transmediale, a yearly multi media, art + music festival in Berlin. A full festival pass for 5 days, including the TM Club nights, costs 95 euros. Transmediale obviously enjoys ample support from the City and the Geman Cultural Board, and I’m not saying TypoBerlin is not trying hard enough, I’m not even saying it should be cheaper. I’m just giving the example to broaden the context of comparable gatherings of creative professionals and students, and their affordability.
But getting into endless discussions about money may not be very productive in the end; what is more important is perception. Many German design professionals and students seem to think that TypoBerlin is “not for them”, just like many think that the existing design associations are “not for them”. Meanhwhile a school in Denmark brings in almost 100 students and teachers who do think it is “for them”. I’d be interested in finding out why that is, and how one can influence it — instead of trying to come up with rational-sounding arguments for or against one position or the other.
June 1st, 2009 at 7:13 pm | by Jürgen Siebert
Sorry Jan, I don’t want to be malicious.
What I don’t understand is your complaints about money. You know our conference since 1995 … and you’ve been there nearly every year. As a visitor, as a journalist, as a speaker. Our conference obviously has value for you, as a design journalist and author. It gives you (free) input and you can turn this input into professional work to earn your living. I would say that is a really good deal.
For the same reason 1200 designers visit TYPO Berlin. They pay entrance for that and – when I went through the feedback of this years and last years conference – they hardly never complain that the conference was overpriced.
June 2nd, 2009 at 11:38 am | by jessica jenkins
i dont understand the connection here at all. as a reviewer of a conference part of your job is to look at how it succeeds on its own terms and whether it is worth re-examining its own brief. price is part of the equation and the fact that a reviewer earns from their work is completely irrelevant to the argument. if you make a loud, public event you have to accept that not all the publicity will be entirely uncritical. this is all so obvious though!
June 2nd, 2009 at 3:20 pm | by TYPO Berlin 09… | You Should Like Type Too
[...] issue. Jan Middendorp has some very constructive thoughts in his post and comments over at the Eye Blog. Quoted here is his overall conclusion of the event: All in all, I found this edition of TypoBerlin [...]
June 2nd, 2009 at 5:13 pm | by Jan Middendorp
Jürgen, I’m not sure if you read all of my earlier post.
Again, it makes no sense to discuss pricing as a separate issue. I brought it up as one of a number of factors that may or may not influence TypoBerlin’s success, or lack thereof, as a platform for dialogue within the Berlin and German design community. I think it’s a worthwhile exercise to try to analyse the event’s role in this respect. It would be unprofessional to use a public forum like the Eye blog for voicing any personal complaints or grudges – plus, I don’t have any.
I have been very brief so far, which may have resulted in conclusions that seem rash or subjective or incomplete. After all, this is a blog, not a book. It might be interesting to develop further thoughts on the matter if they can become part of some kind of constructive discourse.
June 2nd, 2009 at 5:23 pm | by Jürgen Siebert
We love to receive critique … because that makes our conference better from year to year. Provoking critique is the reason why we welcome 60 journalists and why we invite 1200 participants to fill out a feedback questionnaire. Anybody who read the results over the years (http://www.typoberlin.de/2009/index.php?node_id=Statistik+bersicht+ffentlich;2582&lang_id=1) can see, that TYPO Berlin is the product of its visitors. Around 50 % of these visitors are coming back one day, another 50 % are new every year. This is the »formula« of TYPO Berlin and »serious rethinking« is happening every 12 month. And certainly we appreciate the constructive thoughts in this thread.
August 24th, 2009 at 9:07 am | by Fontblog » Mitgeschnitten (3): Noch 11 Jahre kultureller Notstand?
[...] 3. Teil seines TYPO-Reports für Eye trauert Jan Middendorp den alten Zeiten nach. Wie aufregend seien die Fuse 95 und die [...]
May 24th, 2010 at 4:55 pm | by Eye blog » At the mercy of the Twitter critics. Robin Richmond is left wondering what defines value at TYPO Berlin
[...] Jan Middendorp, raised a healthy debate about the value of the event (see Day 1, Day 2 & Day 3). As this year’s conference is a sell-out, with roughly 50 per cent of delegates returning each [...]